Russian mnemonic keyboard layout is missing letters in Windows 8.

Hi Victor,

 

Thank you for being a part of Windows 8 Family.

 

I would suggest you to post the same question in MSDN forum for further assistance.

MSDN forum: http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/categories

 

Please feel free to visit our website for any help related to Windows Operating system.

What kind of an unprofessional answer is that?

There is a serious issue here and Victor is not the only one experiencing the problem. Why are you trying to shut us up? Is it difficult to tell us the solution? Or perhaps your Customer Service is busy with more important stuff? There are only few things that can get me frustrated - unprofessionalism is one of them.

 

The core of the problem again - especially for you, sir:

 

1. Custom keyboard layouts made with Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator don't work in Windows 8.

2. Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator itself doesn't work properly in Windows 8.

Thus, at the moment we can neither install our existing keyboard layouts nor create new ones.

 

Possible Solutions:

1. Either come up with a solution that would allow old custom layouts to work with Windows 8

2. Or compile a new version of Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator that would work properly with Windows 8.

 

Is this too much to ask for?

Yes, we need to ask Microsoft to fix the problem with missing Russian letters (Apple has them! See below):

Widelu used Russian Phonetic (mnemonic) layouts have each and every Russian lette:

- suggested by http://AATSEEL.org

- made by Russian-speaking people all over the world, from Australia to Germany, using MSKLC

- Mac computers do have Russian Phonetic layout and it does have all the letters! -
http://shininghappypeople.net/deljr/osx/index.html - see the image there

If there is any documentation for the Russian Mnemonic keyboard that comes with Windows 8, I do not know where it is.  I created my own.  I use a US keyboard, so your keyboard may differ somewhat, but here are the mappings and key sequence combinations for my US keyboard (I think I've got them all right):

Russian Letter	Mnemonic Keyboard entry or sequence
А	A
Б	B
В	V
Г	G
Д	D
Е	E
Ё	Y O or J O
Ж	X
З	Z
И	I
Й	J spacebar or J followed by anything other than A, E, O, U
К	K
Л	L
М	M
Н	N
О	O
П	P
Р	R
С	S spacebar or A followed by anything other than H or C
Т	T
У	U
Ф	F
Х	H
Ц	C spacebar or C followed by anything other than H
Ч	C H
Ш	W
Щ	S C
Ъ	Tilde/left accent key
Ы	Y spacebar or Y followed by anything other than A, E, O, U
Ь	apostrophe/quote key
Э	Y E or J E
Ю	Y U or J U
Я	Y A or J A

Charles, "I created my own" - it was not the point - zillion custom-based Russian mnemonic (phonetic) layouts have been made recent years under XP, Vista, Windows 7 - and they do work under 8.
For example (you can see images of layouts) widely used layouts offered on
 http://WinRus.com/print_e.htm
(including one suggested by http://AATSEEL.org -  see there "Student phonetic")

But the point was that now, in Windows 8, Microsoft offered its onw mnemonic (phonetic) Russian layout, right in the (non-Russian) product shipped, so people became excited at first -
no need to build your own layout or download some from the Web -

but then they found out that MS-own mnemonic layout does not have all the letters of Russian alphabet.

This is the reason of this thread - asking Microsoft to fix its own layout -
and don't let them go away with "You can build one yourself, so no need  for us to fix one we ship"
:)

Paul,

 

Another "you missed the point" reply from someone that missed the point.  Perhaps you did not read my post, or in the event that you actually read it, you did not understand it.  I did not create my own Russian mnemonic keyboard layout.  I used the out-of-the-box one that Microsoft ships with Windows 8, the one you say doesn't have all the letters.  If you had read my post, you would recognize that indeed, all 33 letters of the Russian alphabet can be created using the out-of-the-box Microsoft-written Windows 8 mnemonic Russian keyboard.  What Microsoft missed was the documentation (unless I just couldn't find it, which is possible).  I created my own documentation, and put it into a post for anyone that wants to use the canned Microsoft mnemonic Russian keyboard but who don't know how to generate the "missing" letters.

 

The part you may have missed, perhaps due to missing documentation, was that the letters that you say are not available on the Microsoft-provided Russian mnemonic layout take two sequential letters to generate, not just a single key.  If you look at the chart accompanying my post, you will see the two-letter combinations which generate your "missing" letters of the Russian alphabet.  For example, the English letter c followed by h, or "ch" generates the Russian "ч" which in my view is far more appropriate than assigning some key to that Russian letter and making the touch-typist have to remember where it is located.  Similarly, other "missing" Russian letters can be easily generated using appropriate sequences of English language keys.  "ё" is generated by entering "yo" and "ю" is generated by entering "yu" and so forth.  I frankly have found the Microsoft Windows 8 out-of-the-box Russian mnemonic keyboard to be a thoughtful, effective, and superior Russian mnemonic keyboard, albeit an undocumented one.

 

If you insist on Microsoft doing things the Apple way, then keep hammering on them to change if you want -- but not because they failed to support the entire Russian alphabet as you suggest, but because you prefer the Apple implementation to the one they implemented.  Windows 8 has a number of shortcomings, and I am not a big Microsoft fan in general, but in this case I think they got something right, though they did fail to document how to use it.  Let's hammer on Microsoft to fix its bugs, its security loopholes, and its botched apps, and maybe its documentation while they're at it, but it is pretty petty to claim they need to "fix" something that isn't broken, except maybe in the minds of people that prefer another way of doing things.

 

I played around with the Russian keyboard for maybe 20 minutes, figuring out all the key sequences that would generate the "missing" letters, and documented them in my earlier post, for the benefit of anyone that was initially mystified, as I was, as to how to generate them.  I have both Mac and Windows products, but in this case, I actually prefer the Microsoft mnemonic keyboard because I don't have to think about where the letters that don't easily map are found, I just type in the "mnemonic" two-character sequences.  If you prefer Apple, have at it, but I suggest you lay off the "Microsoft needs to fix their keyboard" language.

Charles,

My apologies! I saw "I created my own" and thought it's about the layout while it was about the documentation.

As for "Apple" way vs "Windows 8" way - it's about MS Windows: 3.1-7 vs 8 and not really a personal preference, it's (at least) 15-year experience reported by many users of the following two different ways of represent Russian letters with mnemonic/phonetic approach:

1) no combination. As regular Russian layout _system_ input, mnemonic is the same  - 1 click for 1 letter. All a user needs is to memorise is a set of 6-7 positions. It takes maximum 2 weeks - and useful for years, as it's "system" way - proven by experience of numerous users of _system_ Phonetic layout for Russian under MS Windows (since 1997 when it was first offered on US site SovInformBureau" by V. Maslov)

So, one time 2 weeks and no more issues. Unlike:

2) with combinations - many Web sites offered - since 1997 - same way (exact same way) as Windows 8 offers now. Numerous tests made by people - it's millions as you can see on the Vistors Counter on of the famous tool that does "the combinations" way - http://translit.ru

Here people have been reporting - for years  the problem that cannot be solved (Russian language is too rich, there is no pre-built list of "exclusions", a tool can one fixed but not another):

combinations are often confused with "normal" letter sequence, for example (again, if one specific example does work in Windows 8, it means nothing - some other Russian words would present same problem):

'vyuchil' - 'yu' is recognized as a combination (while it's not) and produces "bad word" - "вючил"

'rajon' - 'jo' is recognized as a combination (while it's not) and produces "bad word" - "раён"

'schitayu' - 'sch' is recognized as a combination (while it's not) and produces "bad word" - "щитаю"

...

Yes, a space bar (or '+' in case of translit.ru as its author explains - http://translit.ru/help/faq/#question11) can solve that, but people complain that in addition to thinking about the text you typing, you need -
constantly (unlike case 1) ! -
 think whether it's a "special need" word (and thus place a space bar) or a normal word - most people found it extremely annoying and tedious :(

Russian-language forums around the world (only them need mnemonic layout, not in Russia itself) are full of complaints regarding "bad Cyrillic" (since 1997) -
 when people fail to recognize "special need word" and produce meaningless words.
If you read Russian - typical complaints (very short page made way before Windows 8): http://cvt.WinRus.com

It has been discussed zillion times since 1997 - not as "Apple" approach vs "Windows 8" but as
"Mnemonic layout as regular Russian system layout - 1 click - 1 letter"
vs
"Guessing algorithms of converting Latin text with combinations to Cyrillic"

Because in 2nd case a person will have to struggle with "guessing" issues all the time, for years while in 1st case - just learn 6-7 positions (takes 2 weeks) once.

Russian-speaking people, from Australia to Germany , usually say (and it's why Phonetic system layout for Windows 95/98/2000/XP/Vista/Windows 7 is used much wider than "combinations convertion" tools):

"we have learned a whole new language when we came to a new country, so it's not hard to learn 7 positions of system phonetic layout rather than use translit.ru and check all the time whether it's a "special need" thing - and thus place a space bar -  or not.


I really don't know how Windows 8 team came up with this, "combination" way because since Windows 3.1 people used non-combination way for Windows - 1:1 Phonetic layouts made with 3rd party 'layout editors' which could create only "1:1" layout and since XP -
Microsoft's "MS Keyboard Layout Creator" (MSKLC) - http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/goglobal/bb964665.aspx which makes only "1:1" Russian layouts:

a) hundred thousands Russian speaking people outside Russia, from US to Japan and Spain

b) people for whom Russian is a language they learn/teach - they use Phonetic "1:1" mnemonic layouts suggested by http://AATSEEL.org  (made by MSKLC or other 'layout editors' before XP) and such layouts have been used (installed) for many years in the Slavic labs of such Universities  as Harward, Prinston, UCLA, etc.

That is, it's why the person who started that topic and me also complained about "missing letters" - we could not guess that MS suddenly takes "combination" approach as we KNEW - for years - that under Windows, starting even from Windows 3.1 and then all the way to Windows 7 - so many people got used to "1:1" mnemonic/phonetic Russian layout.

So Apple really has nothing to do with the situation - it started to offer Russian mnemonic layout only recently, while under Windows people used _system_ mnemonic layout (as "RU" and as an alternative to standard Russian layout) for years and years.

Again, Microsoft would know those facts - about Russian-speaking people and about AATSEEL members (for example, the author of MSKLC - Michael Kaplan - knows those facts very well as he has been contated by such people since MSKLC appearance on the market) and thus it's strange that they suddenly decide to go another way (troublesome way!) and it's why I personally thought that Windows 8 has missing letters - as I know the situation and follow it since 1993 I gues, when I first used mnemonic layout for Windows 3.1 ("1:1" layout as any 'layout editors' offered only this way)
:)

Most people who need mnemonic find more logical just to type Russian text as they would with standard Russian layout rather than use a space bar (unusual thing, as since Windows 3.1 they just type letters, either with standard layout of mnemonic)

OK, so your argument is that the initial learning curve of assigning all the keys is a good trade-off against the dual argument of following an emerging standard and the possibility of occasionally generating bad words.

 

Fair enough, but I still think that instead of hammering Microsoft to "fix" its Russian Mnemonic keyboard a better approach would be to invite them to offer another one which followed the emerging standard you reference.  There is nothing in Windows 8 that says there can only be one mnemonic keyboard for Russian -- in fact, I believe that there are 3 keyboards currently offered for Russian (why not another?) -- Russian PC, Russian Typewriter, and Russian Mnemonic.

Yes, since Windows 3.1 and through Windows 7 all users of Mnemonic (Phonetic) layout used 'layout editors' - 3rd party and then since XP - MS-own, MSKLC, which produced most straight-forward layout - similar to Standard Russian layout in that sense that:

- it's 1:1 case - one button produces one Russian letter
- it's a "normal", regular way of typing - a user just types (as other users do with Standard layout) and does not need to use strange/errorprone things like a space bar or another symbol that should be used if a special case got caught (if it did, otherwise it's "bad Cyrillic").

I mean, even without "bad Cyrillic" issues it's strange/unusual enough for a Russian typist to use such special work-aroudn as a space bar:

people who wanted to use Mnemonic layout wanted to type as handy as people who use Standard layout, in most "economical" (one button per letter) and "normal" way provided by _system_ as "RU" for Standard layout for years.

Yes, those people can still use their (made under XP or Windows 7) Mnemonic layout where there is no "combinations", under Windows 8. They already do as I 've read on forums.

It's easy for experienced users (build theri own with MSKLC and then install it or download ready one from the Web and then install it). But for not experienced users  it would be great to have such Mnemonic layout - in the form they got used to since Windows 3.1 - already present in Windows 8 as long as Microsoft decided to include a Mnemonic layout into Windows 8!

It's our point (again, not only native Russian speakers but also AATSEEL.org people and their students):
- for so many years people had to download Mnemonic (Phonetic) layouts from the Web, so as long as now Microsoft decided to have one right in the system, why should it be of a different type???

:)

1) Microsoft ought to offer another version of keyboard layout creator for Windows 8, so people can use built-in option or create their own, not relying on previous versions of OS or/and existing layouts.