HDTV Help, Please!

Hi everyone....thanks in advance for any help you guys can provide.  It's really appreciated, and right now I'm pretty indecisive because I don't want to make the 'wrong' decision.

My question really centers on wanting to get a new LED HDTV, but not being sure how important the Hz spec is in light of, not current gen consoles, but potential next-gen consoles.

Basically, I'm really liking the deal on thisTV, a Samsung 60" LED 240Hz TV.  I believe that current consoles output at 60Hz and then through interpolation and/or other tech the TV actually fills in the 'missing' frames to create less motion blur (please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this....I'm pretty much a hack when it comes to these things).  For gaming this can create problems because of lag, but the clear motion tech can be turned off for games.  Still, the 240Hz would be nice for movies and sports.

However, my understanding is that most current TVs can only accept 60Hz signals, again not an issue because almost all video sources output only 60Hz.  Unfortunately I've looked at the owners manual for this specific TV and cannot seem to find whether this specific set accepts more than 60Hz signals.

My worry is really with the upcoming consoles from Microsoft and Sony.  I know this is a tough nut to crack since we don't know anything for sure on them yet, but what are the chances that they output greater than 60Hz?  Is there a chance they might output 240Hz?  Does anyone know if this specific Samsung model (UN60ES7100FXZA) actually accepts anything greater than 60Hz?

Help!

 

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Last updated July 4, 2018 Views 6 Applies to:

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[quote user="Metal Ghost"]I believe that current consoles output at 60Hz and then through interpolation and/or other tech the TV actually fills in the 'missing' frames to create less motion blur (please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this....I'm pretty much a hack when it comes to these things).  For gaming this can create problems because of lag, but the clear motion tech can be turned off for games.[/quote]That's right.

[quote user="Metal Ghost"]Still, the 240Hz would be nice for movies and sports.[/quote]That's debatable.

[quote user="Metal Ghost"]

However, my understanding is that most current TVs can only accept 60Hz signals, again not an issue because almost all video sources output only 60Hz.  Unfortunately I've looked at the owners manual for this specific TV and cannot seem to find whether this specific set accepts more than 60Hz signals.[/quote]Modern TVs will have a range of input frequencies which they can accept, with 60Hz being the highest.

[quote user="Metal Ghost"]

My worry is really with the upcoming consoles from Microsoft and Sony.  I know this is a tough nut to crack since we don't know anything for sure on them yet, but what are the chances that they output greater than 60Hz?  Is there a chance they might output 240Hz?  Does anyone know if this specific Samsung model (UN60ES7100FXZA) actually accepts anything greater than 60Hz?[/quote]I couldn't find a specific manual stating otherwise, but I'm about 99% sure that the model you're looking at does not accept any input over 60Hz. Also, I wouldn't worry about the Hz issue at all when buying a new TV. The first thing I look for is picture quality, both in accuracy and consistency (with LED TVs it helps to research whether or not a model often has issues with clouding or backlight bleed).

Another thing that's important to check out if the TV will be used for gaming is the input lag on that specific model. Certain websites will measure this specifically (Samsung does not) and can give you an idea of how suitable the TV is for gaming. Most Samsung's do quite well in this regard after careful set up.

Hope that helps. 

 

I haven't seen TVs that accept better than 60hz over HDMI. There are some that accept slightly higher frequency signals over VGA, but that's more to meet the needs of PCs.

 

My guess is that 4k OLED TVs will bring higher frequency inputs to the consumer market but I think it'll take a few more years before those are "affordable". Right now, higher frequency inputs are the realm of TN PC gaming monitors. Not really the kind of thing you want to watch TV on. If buying now, I'd stick with what Silent Paradigm said - focus on the input lag of the set. The prettiest picture and the fanciest motion compensation won't help with gaming if you're stuck with 40+ms latency regardless of mode setting on the TV.

[quote user="IceStorm III"]

I haven't seen TVs that accept better than 60hz over HDMI. There are some that accept slightly higher frequency signals over VGA, but that's more to meet the needs of PCs.

[/quote]

With an HDMI connected device, it depends on the TDMS clock of the cable and device your connected from and to. The cable must be high speed because the normal 165mhz clock of a standard speed HDMI cable only allows up to 1080p 60hz with 24-bit color.  Only high speed (340mhz) cables allow headroom for 1080p-1440p 120hz. with 48-bit color or up to 2560x1600p 60hz at 48-bit color. after that, its essentially impossible unless they design a higher bandwidth HDMI cable or go DisplayPort which allows up to 17.28 Gb's of bandwidth. Most consumer devices only support up to 225mhz of that 340mhz clock. That allows 1080p 60hz with Deep color or xvYCC (30 to 48-bit color). 3D ready devices may allow up to the whole 340mhz.

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PC content is set standard at 50/60hz. 120hz is great for motion, but for input delay difference compared to 60hz, its only 8ms vs 16ms. not much gain for a higher bandwidth requirement.

[quote user="HAY HAY Its MDA"]With an HDMI connected device, it depends on the TDMS clock of the cable and device your connected from and to.[/quote]No.

 

What it depends on is what the manufacturers choose to support. Silicon Image has had 300Mhz port processors out since mid-2011. I have yet to see a TV which specifies support for 1080p120 as an input signal.[quote]PC content is set standard at 50/60hz.[/quote]This is gibberish.[quote]120hz is great for motion, but for input delay difference compared to 60hz, its only 8ms vs 16ms. not much gain for a higher bandwidth requirement.[/quote]The difference between 60hz and 120hz refresh is evident to many gamers. It's part of what drives the 120hz PC display market.

 

There's also no "higher bandwidth requirement". Panels can operate at 120hz already, if not more.

It does depend on the TDMS clock because that is what drives the Standard/cable because you do not like me calling HDMI a cable so for your sake, a standard. I have a Blu-ray combo AV-Receiver that when read through MonInfo in windows, the EDID reports that the receiver is capable of a 225 mhz TDMS clock. This is enough for 1080p at 60hz with up to 48-bit color xvYCC and Deep Color. That is because the receiver is not capable of 120hz so it does not need to be designed for the full 340mhz clock that HDMI 1.3+ offers. The device which could be an Xbox 360 for instance, is only HDMI 1.2 and provides up to a 165mhz TDMS clock. this provides 1080p/60hz at Full 4:4:4 RGB which we know the Xbox 360 is capable of.

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Like i said, since you say "I have yet to see a TV which specifies support for 1080p120", BOTH devices connecting to and from have to support the necessary TDMS clock for 120hz and this clock gives an indication if it supports 120hz or not like i exampled above. So i mentioned how the output device has to support it by providing capability for outputting the 120hz image, but the Display, whether its a monitor or TV, has to support the Input for 120hz and you can indicate this on a TV by having a 3D display or not (since 3D requires seperate 60hz images as you know). On monitors, it could be different because my laptop monitor can be forced up to 135hz (i have made custom resolutions in the Nvidia Control Panel),  but i have not tried any 3D content on it yet. So it does not mean its entirely up to 3D or not and that's not using an internal HDMI connection anyways so its something entirely different.

[quote user="HAY HAY Its MDA"]It does depend on the TDMS clock[/quote]Windmills do not work that way.

 

A clock signal does nothing on its own. It's not even an issue from a cabling perspective as HDMI High Speed has been the de facto cable standard since the moniker was coined. HDMI Standard Speed is just a nice way to refer to HDMI 1.2 and earlier cabling.[quote]the EDID reports that the receiver is capable of a 225 mhz TDMS clock.[/quote]That information is coming from the device, not the HDMI chipset. The chipsets to support 300Mhz signaling have existed since mid-2011.

 

It's a manufacturer decision to not build TVs that support 120hz input signals. It is not a decision made by a TMDS signal.[quote]BOTH devices connecting to and from have to support the necessary TDMS clock[/quote]In context of this discussion, Metal Ghost is asking if he should wait for 120hz. 120hz isn't supported today. I don't see a reason to expect it to be supported in the near future. It's less of an issue what the next gen console will support because the generally available displays today don't support 120hz and there wasn't any news out of CES 2013 that they would be arriving this year.

 

For 120hz input support, Westinghouse may be the manufacturer to look at. They have both 4K TVs and a new range of 1080p TVs arriving this quarter. Unfortunately, Westinghouse doesn't support 3D and their quality has been iffy.

 

Bet on a mediocre TV and consoles that won't launch until fall, or buy something good and be happy all summer? It's up to Metal Ghost if he wants to wait that long. Personally, I wouldn't trade almost a year of gaming on a new TV for the remote chance that 120hz may be supported on the new consoles and the TVs coming late this year.

The cable supports it but the device doesn't yes i know this and you may say otherwise by how i typed my reasoning. Like i said, stop taking it like im always talking about the cable. No crap there's no CHIP in the HDMI cable. You know i mean the Receiver when im talking about the TDMS clock of 225mhz. THE TDMS CLOCK SPECIFIES THE MAXIMUM BANDWIDTH OF THE HDMI CABLE. Is that hard to understand since you take my things out of context all the time?

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HDMI Standard speed and HDMI 1.2 are not referred to as the same thing. Version and Speed are seperate. It just happens to be that Version 1.0-1.2 fall into a point in time where only up to "Standard" speed cables were available. Now this "High speed cable" comes along with HDMI 1.3 and 1.4 because starting with HDMI 1.3, Higher TDMS clocks which translate to a cable with larger bandwidth (10.2 gbps) are available and support up to 4K / 24HZ. So you say that chipsets have been available to support 120hz and the cable supports the necessary bandwidth for it, but the end device does not. This being the display. 120hz in HDTV's are limited to 3D mode by the manufacturer. The panel probably could support it in 2D mode, but is limited to 3D for an HDTV. with a computer monitor, it is not.

[quote user="HAY HAY Its MDA"]THE TDMS CLOCK SPECIFIES THE MAXIMUM BANDWIDTH OF THE HDMI CABLE.[/quote]What a cable supports is determined by how the cable is constructed. It has nothing to do with the TMDS signal generated by a source or received by a sink.[quote]Is that hard to understand since you take my things out of context all the time?[/quote]It's not a matter of taking things out of context, it's a matter of using terms properly in a discussion.[quote]HDMI Standard speed and HDMI 1.2 are not referred to as the same thing.[/quote]That's because the HDMI consortium decided cabling could not be marketed using HDMI version numbering. They still needed a way to differentiate between cabling built before the standard changed and cabling built post-change, thus HDMI Standard Speed and HDMI High Speed were born.[quote]Version and Speed are seperate.[/quote]And just so happen to correspond directly with changes in the standard with respect to maximum bandwidth...

 

HDMI is supposed to be user friendly. Version numbers are not user friendly. This is why products are not to refer to version number in general. They're suppose to list supported features instead.[quote]It just happens to be that Version 1.0-1.2 fall into a point in time[/quote]There's no "just happens". The naming convention change was deliberate.[quote]So you say that chipsets have been available to support 120hz and the cable supports the necessary bandwidth for it, but the end device does not. This being the display. 120hz in HDTV's are limited to 3D mode by the manufacturer. The panel probably could support it in 2D mode, but is limited to 3D for an HDTV. with a computer monitor, it is not.[/quote]This is a lot of words that, while somewhat coherent, say nothing useful.

 

 

This is an example of a bad customer representative, folks. Someone who will shoot you down even though you had the right idea of fixing it in the first place. I'm done replying to any of your posts, Icestorm. I just know that when i post something and then you try to correct it, even though i know what i said has worked for me, that you'll just be shooting an idea down with by-the-book standards.

[quote user="HAY HAY Its MDA"]This is an example of a bad customer representative, folks.[/quote]I agree. You are a poor customer representative.

 

That is, after all, what that Ambassador icon means.[quote]Someone who will shoot you down even though you had the right idea of fixing it in the first place.[/quote]The thread was over with this post. It could have even ended with the previous post, but I felt adding the bit about VGA and providing a sense of time was worth the effort.

 

Your additions didn't help. They tried to apply the wrong reasoning to the end result, among other things.[quote] I'm done replying to any of your posts, Icestorm.[/quote]Worse then you have made that statement. They didn't stick to it.[quote]I just know that when i post something and then you try to correct it,[/quote]That didn't happen here. Re-read the thread.

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