Does anyone else have this problem with 30 fps games ...

Since I've upgraded to a big screen 600hz plasma I've noticed that 60 fps games (Rage, All the Call Of Dutys) look absolutely great, but every single game that runs at 30 frames per second looks atrocious. What I mean by this is that if you play a game like Skyrim (30fps) and stand still everything around you looks sharp and crystal clear, but if you pan the camera around it gets a juddery double image effect to the point that you can't read the letters on a sign.

This is a new problem to me as I've been gaming on a CRT Sony Wega for years and everything looked fine. After doing some research online I've since discovered that this juddery effect is a problem related to a 30 frames per second output going into a 60hz display device. This makes sense to me because if I hook my PC up to my current tv and play Fallout 3 at 60 FPS everything looks fine but if I cap the graphics at 30 FPS it turns all juddery.

 The part that really bothers me is when other people claim not to have the same problem and don't know what I'm talking about. This was kind of explained to me in that older tv's with various refresh rates other than 60hz do a better job at masking the motion juddering just due to the timing of their refresh rates.

 I've also encountered people who know what I'm talking about and say it's a major drag because 90% of their games are 30 fps and become almost unplayable, but they just learn to live with it.

 I know it's not a faulty tv I have or a problem related to the specific model. I've spent hours in the stores with my 360 testing out EVERY 60+ inch tv on the market. Samsung, Panasonic, LG. They all had this awful motion juddering when playing 30 fps games. At one store I had three sales people walking around with me testing every unit and they could all see the problem and agreed it looked terrible. One Panasonic model had a "Motion Smoothing" feature that completely eliminated the screen juddering but when it was activated it also created an extreme level of response lag making aiming just ridiculous.

 Does anyone else know what I'm talking about? I do have really sharp vision and my eyes are extra sensitive to things like frame rate and fidelity, I also know I was gaming on a CRT for many years and plasma can't really match it in some ways. But Damn, it's disappointing that even new games like Dead Space 3 or Dishonored are just unpayable for me now on my 360.

 

 

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Last updated October 12, 2018 Views 29 Applies to:

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Yeah it's really noticeable to me on any HD 60hz+ display I use. Really a trade off between fidelity and frame rate. It's best to lock it at 30 frames per second if you know you're going to be doing below 60 often. Just the games running on older hardware that is the 360. Call of Duty is basically a supped up quake 3 engine, and Rage was amazing because Carmack set a goal for it to run at 60 fps on the consoles which took a ton of effort other developers don't have time implement. Just be glad that hopefully this year you can buy a console that actually runs games at 1080 at 60 fps. One last game Star Wars The Force Unleashed 2 had  this amazingly complicated frame doubling system to make it seen like the game was running at 60 fps. Should look up the technical paper. Amazing tech but a pretty awful game.

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If the game is fun I eventually tune out the limits of the hardware and just enjoy the game.

Sounds to me like you already have your mind made up. You know it's not your system and you know it's not your tv. Clearly the problem lies in the video game being 30 FPS as you don't have these problems with 60 FPS games. I'm not sure what your question is. Your post sounded more like a rant than a question.

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The answer is yes. Everyone has that problem with 30 FPS games because that's the nature of the beast. Or they just dont notice it or care about it like you do. The new systems have already said that all games will run on a minimum of 60 FPS so your sensitive eyes should be good next gen.

[quote user="W0LFENSTEIN666"]Since I've upgraded to a big screen 600hz plasma I've noticed that 60 fps games (Rage, All the Call Of Dutys) look absolutely great, but every single game that runs at 30 frames per second looks atrocious. What I mean by this is that if you play a game like Skyrim (30fps) and stand still everything around you looks sharp and crystal clear, but if you pan the camera around it gets a juddery double image effect to the point that you can't read the letters on a sign.[/quote]You have motion compensation enabled. Set your TV to whatever Game mode it has and disable any smoothing or flow or whatever the TV has enabled.

 

I had the exact same thing happen on my 55" LED LCD TV. Turned on Game mode and the problem disappeared.[quote]After doing some research online I've since discovered that this juddery effect is a problem related to a 30 frames per second output going into a 60hz display device.[/quote]it's not.[quote]This makes sense to me because if I hook my PC up to my current tv and play Fallout 3 at 60 FPS everything looks fine but if I cap the graphics at 30 FPS it turns all juddery.[/quote]It's more likely the PC input on the TV has no motion compensation enabled by default.

Its not motion compensation he has, but the subfield drive of 600hz makes it so 10 cell pulses per frame are possible in a 60 fps game such as call of duty which equates to an even 10*60=600 and games look smooth as it was intended on the panel. Since 30*10 is what other games would mostly be, this only equates to 300hz which is below main refresh rates on plasma's (480hz and 600hz).

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Again, its NOT motion compensation, but think of it as a bigger field for frames to be fed into. This is why apart from CRT, Plasma has the next to best motion performance of any current Digital display. There's nothing you can do to disable this because this is the technology Plasma displays are built on (probably why its so costly too).

The explanation is simpler still.

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Traditional CRT screens flickered. As the picture was drawn on screen, it quickly started fading out again before the next picture was drawn. The persistence of vision in the eye negated some of the flicker, but it was still enough that the eye was purged of each picture pretty fast. As a result, 60 fps games appeared super smooth and 30 fps games appeared fairly smooth.

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LCDs, as well as plasmas with higher drive rates as MDA mentioned, lack this flicker. This means each picture stays on the retina for longer and causes them to stack up. When there is little to no motion blur as in many games, the pictures don't flow together very well and you see the individual frames overlapping, and motion appears juddery.

[quote user="HAY HAY Its MDA"]Its not motion compensation he has, but the subfield drive of 600hz makes it so 10 cell pulses per frame are possible in a 60 fps game such as call of duty which equates to an even 10*60=600 and games look smooth as it was intended on the panel.[/quote]Subfield drive has nothing to do with the framerate of a game.

 

Subfield drive refers to the pulses required to keep the pixels in the panel lit. There is absolutely no synchronization between the subfield drive of a plasma panel and the framerate of a game.[quote]Again, its NOT motion compensation,[/quote]It is. It's the TV attempting to interpolate frames that aren't there using predictive algorithms that don't work for gaming. This causes frames that the 360 never generated to be displayed by the TV. It thinks one type of frame will be sent next, interpolates a few to fit between, then gets slammed back to reality when the next real frame is sent from the 360. It looks like a flipbook that someone flips forward for 10 pages, then skips back five pages and flips forward from again.[quote user="Zacabeb"]The explanation is simpler still.[/quote]What you just described is "tearing", or the effect one observes when a portion of the next frame in queue overwrites a portion of the framebuffer at the same time the 360 is transmitting the framebuffer to the display device. The double image description W0LFENSTEIN666 provided doesn't match tearing.

[quote user="IceStorm III"]

Subfield drive has nothing to do with the framerate of a game. Subfield drive refers to the pulses required to keep the pixels in the panel lit. There is absolutely no synchronization between the subfield drive of a plasma panel and the framerate of a game.[/quote]

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I understand the whole meaning of it as a "trick" for displaying faster motion, but it has synchronization between the game's framerate and the panel because if it doesn't fit into the "trick". 60hz*10 pulses for Call of Duty games with the motion compensation ON would equate to the illusion of 600hz. Take a 30fps/hz game * 10 pulses =300hz and it doesn't fit the whole field of 600hz and you get "judder" as what the OP stated that was wrong with other games VS call of duty.

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So i guess if you're using it (and yes you should disable it if possible, like you mentioned) then playing a 60fps game would make a big difference from a 30 fps one. (but of course, you will take the time to refute my answer so now i wait.)

[quote user="HAY HAY Its MDA"]I understand the whole meaning of it as a "trick" for displaying faster motion, but it has synchronization between the game's framerate and the panel[/quote]A game's frame rate is how often the game can create a new framebuffer. This varies quite a bit.

 

The frame rate that the 360's HANA sends images to a display device is a fixed value determined by either negotiation with the display device or by manual configuration. If the 360 and the display negotiate and decide on 1080p60, then the 360 sends a frame every 1/60th of a second to the display device. This is a fixed interval. It does not vary.[quote]Take a 30fps/hz game * 10 pulses =300hz[/quote]If the game has a hard frame rate cap of 30 FPS, the 360 does not send just 30 frames per second to the TV. It still sends 60 frames per second, the TV just gets the same framebuffer from the 360 twice in succession. It's like filling a 60 page flipbook with duplicates of every image in succession. Page 1 has image A. Page 2 has image A. Page 3 has image B. Page 4 has image B.

 

The subfield drive of a plasma display (and they're now up to 2500hz or 3000hz on the latest Panasonic plasmas) is only there to keep the display lit. While the TV can do fancy tricks with it (interpolation), the 360 has no knowledge of any of that. All the 360's display hardware does is send a frame at a regular interval.

 

If there is judder, it's the TV causing it.

Well i know, its not 30 hz (it still shows 1080@60p when playing any game) and i meant it by 30 fps in a 60 hz window is going to be smoother than 30 fps in a 30hz window since its 30hz is not native refresh rate of the screen.

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However, even with 30fps in 60hz (and then multiplied by the plasma rate 10 pulses per frame) you're getting uneven-ness and there will be judder caused by the TV of course. This is what I mean by synchronization because its not that the Xbox 360 communicates with the TV on how to send its frames to the TV, but how the Xbox 360 is sending its frames in a fixed interval, that is making the TV judder.

Wow. Thanks for the replies. I'm glad to hear from some experts here.

If it makes a difference, with my current tv I have no Motion Compensation features enabled ... but I think the Samsung 8000 series has it buit in by default. It can't be disabled. I'm aware of game mode and have always had it off.

I've spent many weeks trying to tweak all of the settings and there's nothing that even remotely fixes the amount of juddering I get from 30 fps games and also from blu-ray and dvd playback ... which is 24 fps I think.

There is no button right under my nose that I'm forgetting to toggle.

I hate to rant here and I'm not this picky about anything else, but I'm serious about gaming and I'm really suprised how bad 30 fps games look on a big screen plasma. I also find it hard to believe that everyone else plays on these tv's and has no problem. It boggles my mind when someone says " Nope, no problem. No judder here."

The other day I tried to play Bad Company 2's campaign but anytime I panned the camera around it was like a giant earthqauke shaking everything around me. It's really bad and I don't know how anyone could play like that.

It's not just the current tv I'm using.

Since january I've had in my living room 4 big screen tv's.

Samsung 60 E530

Samsung 60 E550

Panasonic 65 ST50

(all returned ... Future Shop hates me)

And now Samsung 64 E8000.

The Panasonic ST50 had a 'Motion Smoothing' feature that when enabled COMPLETELY removed the juddering effect. I could look around in Fallout or Skyrim and everything was just perfect and rock solid.

But it created so much lag that aiming was thrown off completely. If you aimed back and forth really fast, your crosshairs would always be on the opposite side of the sticks. If that makes sense. With the ST50 you could not enable Game Mode and Motion Smoothing at the same time. That probably would have been perfect.

Does anyone here game on a plasma set that is other than 60hz or 600hz? Is the motion any better on a lower refresh rate?

Thanks again for the replies and any advice.

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